Epi 73: Nursing & Cancer Care with Julie Otte

Vince

I would re bad choice. Choice. Yeah. Well then how does the intern typically respond to that? You're like, okay. Or just depends.

Julie

Well, because they know if they don't follow what we, you know, with the nurses suggesting that they do Right. Um, things will go really badly. Yeah. So

Vince

is they're real excited And this is probably a personal or based on the person we're, we're referring to. So the answer is, it just depends. But is there not the concept of a team.

Julie

Oh, definitely. I think oncology more than most disciplines.

Vince

Right?

Julie

Because if you don't have the team, you cannot take care of those patients,

Vince

right? Mm-Hmm.

Julie

And those who have lived it know

Vince

Yeah.

Julie

That they get to know their nurses really well.

Vince

For sure.

Julie

Yeah.

Vince

Yeah. Do you

Julie

remember that experience? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah,

Vince

yeah.

Julie

Yeah. Which is why they stick around. They love patients who are engaged. They wanna do anything you tell them to do to get better. 'cause they know that it's gonna be rough,

Vince

right? Mm-Hmm. They also. Not just, and this is maybe jumping ahead, but they're not just the ones assisting with, you know, the treatment, let's say, but they're also part of the advocacy team.

Julie

Oh, absolutely. Because I

Vince

know my personal experience, um, there were parts where, um, so I didn't have essential line initially, which today of course, like that's common commonplace. They don't even, don't even think about it. But my arm, the veins in my arms were so fried that. And the nurse knew it, said, Hey, we're, we're gonna central line. And oh, by the way, um, I think it was a four four drug cocktail when we got to, it was either the second or third one, I can't remember which, um, over time was making me more nauseous. And so they addressed that and said, you know what, by the way, we're also not gonna put you out in this mass room with 30 other people around you watching things happen.

Right. You're gonna, we're gonna put you in a separate room and knock you out a little bit.

Julie

Yep.

Vince

Let's go. Cool. Yeah, I do remember that. That was 25 years ago. Well,

Julie

and I think what's interesting is the, the nurses are the ones that are trained to know the drugs, the protocols. Yeah. They know. I mean, I had patients that used to come in. And they would look at me and they would immediately throw up, like it was that quick of an instant recall. Don't

Vince

take it personally. Oh, we

Julie

would laugh about it later. Yeah. I mean, 'cause they were like, please don't take this personally. I'm like, no, we just need to get you in a chair and, and get the anti-nausea. But yeah, I started in the late nineties and so That's right. When all the, when you were five. Oh, I wish I was five at that point. Um, but that's when all the new drugs, you know, the Zofran Yeah, the anti-nausea regimens really beefed up and symptom management became. Such a cornerstone of what nurses did.

Mm-Hmm. And it was actually the Lance Armstrong and the whole focus on symptom management. Okay. Which coincided with that is when we started as nurses, you know, picking up the pace of doing research on cancer symptom management, the whole trajectory of what we can do to make sure that if you're gonna get. The chemotherapy, how do you actually get them to get through it with some quality of life,

Vince

right? Yeah.

Julie

And what can we do symptom-wise, in a nurse's role, can fulfill to make sure that we know this is what you need to piece together, these are how you can support the family. And a lot of that really started in the late nineties.

Vince

Yeah, that's key because I, I vividly remember, you know, I think it was the doctor to tell me, okay, here, here's the medicines you're gonna get and here's the list of symptoms. You might get one, you might get all 12. Yep. Mm-Hmm. Everyone's different. And so, I mean, yes. I, I need to voice what I'm seeing, feeling whatever, but having another set of eyes and ears who aren't being directly impacted is, is huge.

Oh,

Julie

absolutely. Well, and then they teach the family members and they teach you the, if you have these five things, this is what you can do about it. Yeah. And you only remember like 2% of what they tell you.

Daniel

Right.

Julie

But when you come back in on a frequent basis, they're the ones who can redirect and know exactly what to do.

Vince

Mm-Hmm. Yeah.

Julie

So,

Vince

so Swedish Fish. No,

Julie

thank you.

Vince

Okay. They're smart sweets.

Julie

Well, I, I appreciate they're the fact of being, they're, they make you smart that you're trying the vents that you're trying I'm trying to be better.

Vince

I'm trying. Yes.

Julie

I did not realize the addiction of Sour Patch kids.

Vince

I don't know if I'd call it into, well, yeah, maybe I would. I

Julie

don't know.

Vince

Therein lies, it's not as, the addiction is not as great as caffeine, but yeah. It's, it's one of my major food groups. Mm-Hmm. The two together.

Julie

Yeah. As a leaf. A combination.

Vince

They often do join together. Yes. Not good in the afternoon.

Julie

Good thing I would was I'm following a nutritionist. 'cause that's part of the story. Well, you have to eat better. There you go. To get moving.

Vince

That's right. Agreed. Well, let's touch on those. Mm-Hmm. And, uh, in the episode, okay. Let's do it all. Is this thing going? Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Summits podcast. Thank you all for joining us on this particular episode. From wherever you get your podcasts, or if you are joining us on the Heroes Foundation YouTube channel, thank you for tuning in. Uh, if you are doing so there and you haven't hit the little subscribe button or the notification bell icon so you can be notified when new episodes like this one drop.

Please click on those. You don't have to eat any fake, uh, gummy. Candies. Um, you can eat the real deal, but please do it, it cost you nothing. Um, all right. We have a special guest today that I know Daniel is certainly excited for because I've already heard boiler up like five times. Um, which is fine. Uh, Juliete. Julie, welcome to the uh, thank you Summit podcast. Thank

Julie

you for having me.

Vince

You're welcome. Here, why don't you provide our listeners and viewers a little background on yourself.

Julie

I am a proud Purdue Boilermaker nurse. Graduated in, let's just say nineties native fix. And um, then after that went and worked up in Chicago and got my first job, uh, on the south side of Chicago and became an oncology nurse. Probably the profession that within nursing, I thought would be the least on my list of. Options. Yeah. But, um, oncology at that point was the only one hiring because back in the late nineties, nursing was in a, a slump where there were not a lot of jobs that were open. Okay. Healthcare was changing and they were hiring patient techs versus a lot of nurses to try to balance out the budgets.

And really we cycled to the point where you just took the first job versus today, as you both know, it's. I could leave Indiana University and go to any, probably practice and be on the floor within a day. Yeah. Um, so

Vince

it wasn't a case of you deciding what area of nursing you wanted to go into. It was just, well, how was available and, yeah.

Julie

Which is really sad to admit.

Vince

Yeah. Okay. But today, obviously there's, there's, uh, correct me if I say this wrong, are there more specialty options and Yes. Reading more finite areas of nursing, there are

Julie

more pathways for nurses who come out, um, especially with a bachelor's, so. Okay. I worked on bone marrow transplant at University of Chicago. I didn't even know what a bone marrow transplant really was going to entail. So, but I took a job because they were hiring. Mm-Hmm. Um, and I fell in love with oncology. These patients were amazing. They would stay on the floor for three to four weeks and we would obliterate their bone marrow and then transplant them.

So I was on a unit where. We actually specialized in the unmatched donors, which, um, at the time was really messy. Um, it did not bode well for many of the patients I took care of. But you know, after a year of doing that, it wears on you. And so then I went outpatient and did chemotherapy and stayed there until I went back to get my master's. Um, went down to Nashville, Tennessee and got my master's to be a nurse practitioner in oncology. To really focus on the symptom management piece that we were just talking about where, you know, I saw all these patients come in and we would treat them.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

But then they would survive having these horrible symptoms. Symptoms of, you know, poor sleep or you know, women had hot flashes. Like all kinds of things that we didn't really know what to do about. So I met this fantastic faculty member when I was in Nashville, Janet Carpenter, and she got recruited to Indian University and so. I started working for her as a research assistant. Um, nurses don't really learn research in a way where it makes it really fun. It is very boring to learn, but I got a lot of hands-on experience and I was like, that's what I wanna do. Nice. So,

Daniel

yeah,

Julie

I wanted to contribute more. I mean, oncology really wears on you after a while. I mean, I was doing it for 10 years and all of your patients either recover. Or they don't.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And

Julie

you know, after a while there was one patient in particular from Purdue that happened to be in Nashville living there. She was really, really sick with end stage breast cancer. And after that I was like, I think I need a break.

Daniel

Yeah.

Julie

Because you can't not get attached to your patients. Yeah. And that's that caring part of what nurse's role is. You know, they're the ones who. Are flushing the central lines, giving the chemotherapy, and you see them decline and after a while it just, it wears on you. So

Vince

is that common? I mean, do you, do you see that where, um, I don't wanna call it burnout, but nurses get burnout in a certain area. Mm-Hmm. And either leave nursing altogether or just go to a different area of nursing.

Julie

Yes. And I think that is even more true post covid, which I hate to even matter the words covid in an interview, but it is such a part of our story now, the shift of what happened during those two to three years, um, all the older nurses that were probably close to retirement finally decided that they needed to just go ahead and retire.

Daniel

Okay. And

Julie

it's left a void. Mm. Obviously the workforce for nursing has shifted quite a bit. And so, and then people just realize it was just too much. Every sector of medicine was so greatly affected by the clo, you know, the shutdowns, the rescheduling, the masking, the, just the stress of it all. And so hopefully now that we have a lot of new graduates coming out of schools like, you know, IU and Purdue, they have a fresh start.

They have a different perspective.

Vince

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

Of what it's going to be like. So, right. Yeah.

Vince

So, um, what. What is the focus at the School of Nursing today? And I know that's kind of a broad question, but like

Julie

it's a broad question.

Vince

Since you've seen nursing evolve and change somewhat over the last,

Julie

because I'm old few, hour 50 did not say that I am, you're,

Vince

you're as midlife, as mature as I am, or I, I shouldn't use the word mature. I reference myself. You're much more mature than I am, um, as you asked if we can curse on this podcast or not, which you already know the answer. Um. How has, how's it evolving? What ha the teachings in nursing school today versus 20 years ago? Um, like what are you guys focusing on now that was different?

Julie

Well, I think the way we teach nursing is different. Yeah. You know, we used to be, you know, it was, here's the book, here's the lecture. You memorize it, you take a test and you move on. But now our students are much more integrated in the learning process where they have to sometimes present the content. They're the ones who we are looking at the concept and how it threads through the whole lifespan. It's not just, this is pediatrics, this is adult. Okay. Um, so it shifted a little bit on how we teach in the classroom, but. I will say the technology is much more sophisticated than when I was in nursing school.

I mean, there was still paper charts. We would still have to write our notes, but everything is electronic now, which is nice to some respect, but also it has shifted the fact that when you walk into a patient's room, the nurse now walks up to a computer.

Daniel

Yeah, sure. Versus

Julie

before we would walk up to a patient.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

And so I think there's pros and cons.

Daniel

Yeah.

Julie

Especially when your system shuts down and you have no electronics. Then you are shifting a whole population of nurses into an area where they don't know how to rhyme. Write. Oh my God, I

Vince

have to speak to person now.

Julie

They're like, I have no idea what to do. So I think our patients get that sense. There's not that sense that, you know, the eye contact, you know, but that's just technology in general. Mm-Hmm. And how it's infused, but Right. At the School of Nursing, our focus is really, it's producing really good nurses who are prepared to take on these roles and make sure that they don't burn out. Mm-Hmm. And that they know that there's career pathways and get them into a space where one of the biggest problems we have, there's not enough enough of me or nurse faculty who, or not just doing research. 'cause that's what I do up until, you know, my leadership role that I have at IU now, but. I, you know, we need more faculty that are trained to teach more nurses.

'cause that is the limitation that most schools of nursing in the nation are having. We don't have qualified faculty

Daniel

Okay. To

Julie

be able to expand. So IU just expanded because we got a, you know, a grant from IU Health. Um, so Bloomington, you know, we're Bloomington, Fort Wayne and Indianapolis are under one dean. And so the rest of the IU affiliates have their own accreditation. So we're all striving. It's not just us, it's all around the country. We're trying to get more nurses in to the programs, but you're only limited by space and faculty.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

And so, you know, the faculty, I don't wanna call it so much a shortage, but we're gravitating towards that. Um, you're competing with practice in terms of pay.

Daniel

Sure.

Julie

In terms, I mean, I like the flexibility of it. Um, and a lot of people who have families, you know, you can teach and, but. We can't produce more nurses if we don't have those things in place. Right.

Vince

Yeah. You mentioned research, so in addition to your teaching, um, what else are you doing

Julie

right now? I'm an assistant dean of evaluations, so all of the, all of the data that comes in on the quality of our program. Since I love data, I love to crunch numbers. I take that and I write all the reports for accreditation for all the other leaders in the school who need the data to make good decisions.

Daniel

Yeah.

Julie

Um, so all, you know, the student evaluations that you did as a, as a undergrad student, grad student. Okay. I take those and we help the other faculty make decisions about where changes need to happen. Um, all that, you know, logistical stuff. So I do a lot of data crunching.

Vince

Lot of numbers when, when you're at home, does Frank tell your kids, go to the dean's office?

Julie

The funny thing is he's always like, oh, it's a math question. Go talk to your mom.

Vince

That's true. See, will tell you he did, did not like math

Julie

and I, I taught undergrad statistics, which is hilarious. That really, I don't have a degree in statistics, but it's how research matches up with what you do with data. Mm-Hmm, sure. Yeah. Take the data to make informed decisions, and that's what. That was what geeks me out a little bit because that's what nurses need to do. We need to use evidence to drive the practice. So traditionally, if you go back, you know, a hundred years, it was like, well, why don't we try to put the NG tube out this, we'll just see what happens.

Mm-Hmm. You know, and, but the testing and the research wasn't in place and so now we know we need to research it, if that's the correct placement. Then let's do it that way. Create a procedure so it stays the same. Yeah. So we base it on good practice and data versus just, let's just see what what happens.

Vince

Sure. All right. So I'm gonna ask a dumb question, which I'm very good at. When you reference doing research in the areas of nursing, what typically, 'cause in my mind, I'm thinking research. I think like concocting a new medicine that's gonna perform better than what's on the market today. Um. When you say research on the nursing side, like what, give us some examples of what that might entail.

Julie

That's a really good question actually. 'cause a lot of people get confused that a nurse can get a PhD. So we do have a unique PhD in nursing. Okay. And it's, you know, you have doctors that get MD PhDs. So they, not only are they trained to do research, but typically their research is direct development. All that r and d that nurses can get involved. There's plenty of nurse researchers with PhDs that work for people like Eli Lilly Mm-Hmm. And work in their research programs. But for me it was researching what can I do in terms of a nurse intervention, so symptom management. Okay. So my specialty was sleep at that sleep was so fascinating 'cause a lot of my patients would get past the, um, the initial diagnosis and all the way through the end of treatment.

And they're not sleeping. Hmm. And that is a big problem. 'cause without sleep, um, your whole body and I mean Yeah. Especially as a young parent, if you've got 2-year-old, I mean, you know, sleep is premium. Yep. And when you don't get it, things just fall apart.

Vince

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that explains it. Yeah. It explains a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie

But typically you transition outta that point. But a lot of these people, for whatever reason. So I thought sleep was fascinating. Yeah. And the physiology of it. You know, how do we actually lay down and close our eyes and our brains shut down?

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

So I did a lot of research to try to figure out what the problem was and how, not so much to give them a treatment, but to stop them from taking some of the treatments they were taking. I mean, people were taking Ambien and

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

All of these, not that I can, not sure if I can name drop all these drugs, but they would be prescribed these drugs. And those have consequences. I mean, they were getting up in the middle of the night, like binge eating, you know? Mm-hmm. And not knowing why.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

So we try to do non-drug interventions. Okay? So how can we teach you to not eat ice cream before you go to bed? Like stop watching TV to fall asleep, right? Those are all bad things right away. Okay.

Vince

Before you fall.

Julie

So what

Vince

if, what if you put Ambien in red wine and watch tv? Oh, Vince, I'd not speak on my, hypothetically, we'll talk

Julie

offline about those bad habits, but, um, eat some more Swedish fish. So it's not, I mean, we create interventions that are more about quality of lives and symptom management, which to me are originally was like, this sounds awful. Like why would I wanna do that as a career? Mm-Hmm. But when you add in certain wearables to find out, like, this is your sleep pattern and yeah. I mean, patients are really grateful because they finally, someone has acknowledged that they have a problem.

Because when you're in the medical system, and maybe you experience this, you know, not all doctors have the time to dive into every symptom that you are experiencing. So you hit the high ones like, I can't keep anything down. What can I do? Or, I'm still having, and you're usually, some patients walk in, they don't wanna talk about their symptoms because they're like, I don't want my cancer to come back, especially if they're a survivor.

Daniel

Right.

Julie

You know, I don't, I just want you to tell me that I have a clean bill of health. But they could go home and still have all these pains, you know, numbness and tingling in their hands from the chemotherapy, right? You name it, head to toe, their symptoms. So we try to focus on what can we do to learn more about it and then help them in a non-pharmacological way, whether it's, you know, teaching them how to sleep better and getting people to actually do what's called cognitive behavioral therapy for sleep.

Basically you're changing your behaviors and that's probably one of the hardest things for people to do. Sure. Is change behavior. Yeah. And so I did a postdoc fellowship after I did my PhD here at iu. So I have a degree from IU and Purdue.

Vince

Yeah.

Julie

Although I only hung my Purdue flag out.

Vince

Sure. Perfect. I like it.

Julie

I have allegiance to Purdue. Um, so we, you know, I did a postdoc in behavioral symptom management. Um, so with that training, you're trying to really. Get people to change behaviors, and that is the tough, really one of the toughest things. I mean, think about it, you know, stop eating Swedish fish,

Vince

right? Mm-Hmm, Vince, I know. Just trying to get me on a, a smarter form of candy than the original. Sour Patch kids. And to your point, it's, it's all about changing behavior. It is hard.

Julie

And that goes along with all of the, the front end of the cancer trajectory. And that's like primary prevention, right? That is diet, it's exercise, it's, you know, all the things that are super hard when you walk into a grocery store. It's not as if there was a nurse that I think did research this. You know, you walk in, what is the first thing in Kroger that you see? It is every sweet candy and cake possible.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

Versus putting healthier choices up front so that people don't automatically are like, I am starving. I'm gonna get those five

Daniel

Yeah.

Julie

Things of cookies, you know, the soft pillow cookies. Mm-hmm. With the icing that all these kids are totally addicted to for every birthday treat.

Vince

Yep. Yep. '

Julie

cause they're nut free. I'm like, well they're not sugar free. This is true. They're not good.

Vince

We replaced whatever nuts might have been in it with more sugar. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a preservatives. Mm-Hmm.

Julie

So there's a lot of things that we could do, but people are very reluctant to change. Mm-Hmm.

Vince

That's for sure. Yeah. There's

Julie

not a lot of motivation. And sleep is just like diet. We control it. Yeah. We control all the aspects that lead up to our sleep at the, you know, but do we do it? Not always.

Vince

Right. So seven hours still the recommended number. It is, yeah.

Julie

Roughly. It's all about the range,

Vince

right?

Julie

Um, six to eight is optimal. Making sure you don't wake up every 10 minutes, you know? Yeah. Um, ruminations, a lot of people are now are so stressed that they wake up and they cannot shut their brains off. Um, there's a lot of sleep disorders that people have that go and diagnose. So that was my recent research is trying to figure out. If they're, if they're doing all of these things to help them sleep, why are they not getting diagnosed? Or at least ruling out the fact that they could have sleep apnea or, you know, other things that if you don't have a bed partner and a dog is not a bed partner, um, if you don't have someone telling you that you're kicking your legs every night, you know, unfortunately, Frank calls me thumper 'cause I'm always thumping my legs at night 'cause I have restless leg and so I don't know it.

I'm like. Dude, I was asleep.

Daniel

Yeah. I can't help you with that. Yeah.

Julie

But you know, it's really bothersome and it's not good. 'cause you wake up exhausted. So, and when you don't sleep, you function the next day. You're like, eh, I'm tired. But then you caffeinate.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

Which is not good. And it just, it takes six to eight hours to process caffeine in your body.

Vince

I should be good for a while. Yeah. He does think on that for a second. Yeah.

Julie

Some people drink it all the way to the end of the day and it does disrupt your sleep patterns at night. Okay. Sleep is fascinating. Yeah. Not everyone's like, why do you focus on sleep? I'm like, it's fascinating.

Vince

Yeah. You know, it, it, it, I mean, I'm not in that world. It sounds kind of boring on, on the surface, but to your point, like it has implications in a lot of areas.

Julie

It does and, and really it, especially at the high school of nursing, we had, we have a big cadre of cancer researchers who look at everything from cancer screening. You know, how do we get people to, I mean, that's really an important piece. Mm-Hmm. If we're going to do cancer prevention and control, how do we get especially disparate populations like to get their mammograms, to get their colon, you know, colonoscopy. I mean, who really wants to get a colonoscopy? Right? I mean, no one's really signing up to run into. The prep and get it all done, but when you do it the first time, you're like, that's not so bad.

Right? Mm-Hmm. But it is, it is really hard to get people to do. So we've had faculty who have, and they're nurses, they do all that research to get the behavior changed, to get them to get screened. Um, and physicians are focused on the treatment part of it once we actually get them screened and diagnosed.

Vince

Yeah. Um, intrigued to hear about kids that are going into nursing school today. What are you seeing? What, what? Well, number one, why are they going into nursing? Has that changed at all or is the, is the impetus for them to go into that field? Mm-Hmm. The same as it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. And, um, I guess what, what area of nursing seems to be the most popular and why?

Julie

That's changed quite a bit. I think. Um, you know, back in the late nineties, er was the really common TV show. Everybody was binge watching it. Mm-Hmm. Binge watching, that wasn't even a word back then. You actually had to click on a remote and turn the TV on and wait until only that one episode. That one episode.

Daniel

Right.

Julie

But today, you know, I, I think the reasons, it's funny 'cause we do have, you know, we have some kids from ARD seniors that are headed somewhere for nursing. Mm-Hmm. And I've talked to a few of 'em in particular. And I think they just, they've never really told me why. I think they do like that point of taking care of someone. Yeah, that empathy, you know, nurses, not everyone goes into nursing, has that empathetic side, but they see job stability and that's fine too. I mean, literally it is the most stable job in healthcare. There will always be nurses. There's a lot of exciting places you can move to and be a nurse. And if you're a nurse here.

Pretty much it's gonna be the same if you're a nurse there. So it is a translatable profession, and so I do think people see that There's a lot you can do and it's flexible. Yeah. You work three 12 hour shifts and then you're done for the week. And you can still go and balance out. 'cause you know, this new generation, they're all about having fun and going out and living their life and traveling.

And so I give 'em a lot of credit. 'cause we were grinding eight hour shifts back then. 12 hour shifts were fairly new. Yeah. And, um, unless you were in surgery. So I don't know really what area of nursing that many people are going into. I would say we supply a lot of nurses to IU Health and so, okay. A lot of people like the babies, they wanna go into the maternal child health. Um, a lot of people still like the ER critical care. They like that high adrenaline nursing. There's not a lot of people signing up for like the med, what we call the MedSurg floor, which is the general sick unit. Okay. Um,

Daniel

yeah.

Julie

The ones that stay with chronic illnesses come back and forth. You get a bunch of different varieties of things, so not a lot of people switching up for that. They want the high adrenaline, I feel. The higher pace or they wanna travel. A lot of nurses end up traveling. Yeah. They'll go three months here, six months there. All over the country.

Vince

Yeah. You mentioned technology before. Um, technology has influenced everything, everything, all of our lives, you know, professionally or personally. What would you say are the, the, the one or two biggest technological advancements that have changed nursing or e either positively or negatively?

Julie

Well, I think positively I do like. The electronic radical, the, the, the EMR, we call it the Yeah. Medical record. I think that it does put the data into the hospital's hands much quicker.

Daniel

Yep.

Julie

So that you can determine, and that's, you know, part of the movement. You have to get paid by the insurance companies. Mm-Hmm. If you have the data, you know, you can see where your safety issues are. And I do think for better, for worse, it's definitely, but the counterpart of that, that we talked about. Is that we're behind a screen with our patients. Mm-Hmm. I mean, you go even outpatient to see a doctor. Now there's doctors that have scribes, that there's someone there taking notes for them so they can refocus on making eye contact. Yeah. With patients being more physical and hands on.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

Um, so I think it's, I mean, it balances itself out. I do think it's a positive thing. I think what I struggle with the most is hearing nurse managers talk about how much the nurses, the new nurses and generations and not globally. They have their phone on them.

Daniel

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. They,

Julie

and so there's that constant dis distraction. And I would be curious if someone would research, this would be a great research. Some for one of the nurses. Like how many, how much has medical emer, you know, mistakes or whatnot, been influenced by nurses being distracted. 'cause they have their phone and their personal phone is buzzing and they have a phone over here for their patient's call is now sometimes a phone.

Daniel

Yep.

Julie

So I think for better, for worse, it's, it's, it's something we all have to deal with. It's not going away sadly. Right.

Vince

Yeah. And you can't, you can't like say, okay, well as you start your shift, you have to put your personal phone up. That would be, yeah. Dicey.

Julie

Well, and I, and I don't like when I see these news blurbs about a nurse whose posted something on TikTok when they're at work. I'm like, what is the point of that? I really struggle with the Instagram TikTok, where they're at work and you know, they're broadcasting. Something Mm-Hmm. That really should not be part of the profession. Right. It just really, to me, diminishes the importance of what they're there for. Um, it does tell the story, so someone would probably attack me and come and say, well, you know, they're expressing their voice, but I don't know if that's the right venue to do it.

Um, so I, I, I think there's some shifting that could be done. Mm-Hmm. There.

Vince

Yeah.

Julie

Find the appropriate time.

Vince

Right. You're a big TikTok, aren't you?

Julie

Oh, huge. Yeah. I wouldn't even know how to use it. Oh my gosh. If my daughter watches this, she's gonna be like,

Daniel

hold on,

Julie

I don't even have Instagram. So my husband and I are, we are a no, no social media pair. We have vowed ever since it was MySpace. I'm like, I just really am not that popular. I don't think people are gonna be that concerned about what I'm doing. Mm-Hmm. Don't wanna see me, but. It has connected many thousands of people.

Vince

It has, it has, I mean, it has its positives, but just think of all the negative aspects. Yeah. Even if it's just a pure time suck that you've avoided, that's, it's not a bad thing. Yep.

Julie

It's not a bad thing. I mean, I always say in academia now what we're dealing with is how do we, how do we handle ai?

Daniel

Right.

Julie

And so I, and I don't have an answer for that. I go to some, you know, sessions in a research conference and they're like, it is, it can be used to your benefit. But then we have faculty talking about the fact that they have to validate every assignment.

Vince

Mm-Hmm. Right. So Danielle and I were talking about AI end of last week. Uh, I, I was at a conference a week ago, uh, today actually, as a matter of fact. Um, and there was a speaker on AI just kind of in general because it, the people in the room, there were some older folks who've heard of ai, but have never tried anything, haven't, you know, tried chat GPT yet or anything like that, and other folks in the room who've already started to adopt it.

So it was very generalized conversation, but to your point, there are gonna be a lot of aspects where it's very positive. Mm-Hmm. But there's also some things that are pretty freaking scary.

Julie

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Vince

Um, and we're just kinda, he's making the decision, right? Yeah.

Julie

Cha, GBT or the physician. Well, and,

Vince

and if you don't know any better, how do you know if that is accurate or not? Mm-Hmm.

Julie

Yeah. Well, I, I believe there was one comment that someone said that chat, GBT did pass medical boards.

Daniel

Okay.

Julie

Which is really scary.

Daniel

That is interesting.

Julie

Yeah.

Daniel

That is interesting. It would be

Julie

interesting if they, you know, could pass nursing boards

Daniel

as well. Yeah.

Julie

Not that they would be able to do that during the, I mean, it's a controlled exam, so Yeah.

Vince

But,

Julie

but if you're, if you're there in practice Yeah. You're all the sudden you're like, Siri. Mm-Hmm. How do you address a wound?

Vince

Yeah.

Julie

And Siri's giving you the, the answer, it's probably not a good practice. It's not evidence. Not

Vince

warm lemon juice. Yeah. No. Okay.

Julie

Pretty sure that's not the answer. Yeah.

Vince

Well,

Julie

that's

Vince

a good thing. I didn't go to nursing school.

Julie

I would love to see that though.

Vince

Oh yeah. Well, what I just envisioned in my head really quickly was not a pretty, was not what? No. And I don't think nurses were the old school like white. Shoes with the thick soles and the, the white nurse crash it or dress and the, and the, the little hat. Hat. Yeah. That's been

Julie

gone for quite a while. Quite a while. Yeah.

Vince

I know. I'm outta touch actually,

Julie

I think I was right on the verge. It was probably eighties when, when we finally ditched the,

Vince

you're probably the one that ridden hat that did that. You probably went in and said, uh, hell no, thank you. Does not fit on my permed

Julie

eighties hair.

Vince

Well, yeah. Did you bring a photo of that, by the way, for the episode? We could put it up. No. Hell no. Okay. Fair enough. Absolutely not.

Julie

But I do believe my children found a picture of that in my mom's house recently, and I was like, I'll take that. Thank you.

Vince

Yeah. I need to dispose of this. Right. Well, Julie, what, uh, what is your cancer story?

Julie

So, if I had to talk about my cancer, I've had personal experience, obviously. Uh, one is a very recent, which was devastating, but really it's all the patients that I've cared for, each one. That I have cared for has been an integral part of who I am today, and I'm always grateful for those stories because you know, they opened up their. Mines and their homes sometimes. And you know, when I went in doing research or whether I was on the floor taking care of 'em, they always wanted an ear to tell their story. Mm-Hmm. So their story is part of my story. Um, many of them have sadly passed away. Um, some of 'em, I still get Christmas cards and I value those tremendously because those really relationships, um, are very meaningful when you're an oncology nurse.

Yeah. Because the amount of time you spend with them. Is incredible. Right? And you, you, you have to sit down and listen to them and teach them and then you hear their story. Some of them have been hilarious. I mean, the number of, uh, times that we use humor to connect with those patients who are willing and open to that, so, right. I mean, it's been a good career, but, uh, that it is definitely the times I sat in a hospital room and talked to my patient and he. In my late twenties, I didn't know anything.

Daniel

Mm-hmm. Gave

Julie

me some of the best nuggets that I still carry forward with how to live life, how to be a good person. Um, so my story is solely based on theirs.

Vince

Well, and you're interacting in a very, um, raw state, meaning, I mean, you're, you're seeing people in a very vulnerable state. Um. I mean, I, I still to this day, remember the, the primary nurse that I had most times, I mean, she saw me puke all over myself absolutely multiple times. Mm-Hmm

Daniel

mm-Hmm.

Vince

Cool. And the first time I did that, I was literally in like the general infusion room and there were like 20 people around. And as embarrassed as you are, like, everyone's like, I, I get it. Been there, done that. Can I get your towel? Well, you know, let's Paul help out. Like Yeah,

Julie

yeah. But it's awful. Mm-Hmm. And it's, it's raw. And especially, I mean, how old were you?

Vince

26.

Julie

Exactly. I mean, that's the thing. You were just breaching outta adolescents for the most part, right? I mean, we consider 26 maybe an adult and not much anymore. But I It's, you connect with them and they would, they, you probably, if you had a choice, you would ask for the same nurse every time because Oh yeah. You. You develop that intimate relationship almost with them. And that's why I said, you know, that one patient would come in and immediately throw up when they saw me, we would laugh about it, you know, and we'd clean it up and, but it was just part of it.

Daniel

Yeah.

Julie

Um, but their stories and their strength are incredible. I mean, some of the just incredible stories of Survivor, you know, survivorship through a horror, but then dying with grace. And we don't talk about that enough. I've seen an example recently where someone truly died with grace, and that doesn't happen very often, but you have to be prepared and open for the, the tail end of the story.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm.

Julie

And that's not always hard for families to talk through. Um, more needs to be done. We have faculty at the School of Nursing that really are focused on. End of life and preparing end of life and being realistic about what that looks like. Mm-Hmm. Um, but you have to be ready to listen to that and be ready to prepare for it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the whole, it's the whole thing.

Vince

Well, we thank you for what you do. Yeah. And training the next generation of nurses, um, that they make a huge impact. Um, I, I'm a witness to that firsthand, but I think everyone would, would agree. Um, and we wanna thank you for being a, a beneficial, um, productive board member of the Heroes Foundation. Oh, thank

Daniel

you. It's been my pleasure. Um,

Vince

your, your personal support, uh, in that endeavor, um, means a lot. And so we, we greatly appreciate that.

Julie

Well, I look forward to doing more and, um, especially as we enter into May, it's National Nurses Week, the sixth through the 12th. Shout out to all the nurses Yeah. During that week. Mm-Hmm. Um, it's an important week to really acknowledge. I don't know if many nurses would be like, eh, it's, you know, but they do. They, they do hard work. Mm-Hmm. Really hard work every day. Um, they're the ones who clean up the puke.

Daniel

Mm-Hmm. That,

Vince

there you go. And all that. And on that bombshell and on that one. There you go. Okay.

Daniel

Well, thank you for puke.

Vince

Well, hey, uh, we, we appreciate your time. Thanks for coming in. Yeah, thank you. We knew you were, you were so excited to come here and do this podcast episode. I mean, it's only Tuesday on this day of recording, and I look three, she contact to me three times already this week. I can't wait. Can we do it today? She was buzzing on social media about being here. I was.

Julie

I was. I was tagging my TikTok.

Vince

Yeah. There you go. See? Perfect. Perfect.

Julie

Thank you both. You made this very painless, so I appreciate it. Well, we try. No

Vince

problem. And thank all you guys for joining us on this episode of the Summits podcast. We appreciate you all tuning in. Don't forget to thank your nurses and appreciate what all they do for the patients that they serve. And don't forget, guys, last but not least, beat cancer.